Film vs Film Podcast

The Batman Spoiler Special

March 14, 2022 Martin Harries Episode 62
Film vs Film Podcast
The Batman Spoiler Special
Show Notes Transcript

On the pod we have an extra special podcast for you this week. Its the first of our spoiler specials kicking off with Matt Reeves The Batman.

Warning we will be talking SPOILERS, obviously.

On this one we get straight into where the film ranks against other bat outings on the big screen. We talk about penguins, cats, bats and creepy riddlers. We talk about all the big talking points, pick out all the good bits, funny bits some bad bits and the scenes we could actually see. IMDB page 


As ever please enjoy. 

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Hello film fans welcome to the film versus film podcast. My name is Martin Harries your host and I'm joined by the filmic Cyclopedia man pious Dix. We are a couple of filmmakers on occasion but mainly Can't Stop yapping about movies. On this podcast every episode, we pick a topic from a film that's coming out at the cinema, or on VOD, myself and buyers pick our favourite film from that topic, and we battle out to decide which film will become the greatest film of all time. According to two film geeks from Wiltshire, England, if you enjoy this podcast please leave us a review and subscribe Hello, Potter RONIS Welcome to the film versus film podcast on a very special podcast the first of up and coming podcasts where we're going to do some spoiler specials on major film releases or home video releases. Yeah, so we will just have a general chat about our reactions to the big films and big home releases. And obviously we are kicking off with the Batman. And no, that was not Optimus Prime, man. Apparently, Optimus Prime as Batman, the intro the best mash? I mean, there's no cow big enough, dude. I mean, move over Robert Pattinson that will be very messy transforming from a car to into, you know, a man and then batsu on just a lot of tears going. Very mangled. Yeah, that suit would have to be the seismic building. Yes, you've heard him already. I am joined by the duct tape man himself. He has returned from Arkham. To join us today to tie you all to chairs so you can listen to us talk. So bow as initial reactions. What do you think of the Batman? What does it rank for you on your Batman ranking? Jesus Christ? Yeah. On my Batman ranking? That's difficult. I think I think it ranks pretty high. I'm not sure where to like, put everything this is. This is something I'd have to like watch them all again. And then like, I think, I think initially Yeah, to really be thorough. But I think yeah, initial reactions. I think it's really high. I think you know, this, this again, sounds like incredibly cliche and stuff. But I think oh, man, maybe like the Dark Knight. Lego Batman. And then this a very, very close second almost tie. But for different reasons. But this might be above all the the Burton Schumacher ones for me. Really? I think this is pretty high for me. Yeah, I did quite enjoy it. I did. Yeah, I think it's pretty high. I don't think it's as good as the Dark Knight or Batman Begins. I think it's possibly on par with Batman Returns. And Batman 89 Yeah, I generally I love the feel of this film. There's been a lot of criticism that is far too dark and a comic book movie should just be a comic book film, but I think you can't really do that with Batman now as we've discovered and ripped to pieces of Batman and Robin, you just can't go down this the same comic route. I don't think with Batman anymore. Batman and Robin basically killed that idea. So I think dark is the way we're back. And now this is the way yeah, you know, I really enjoyed it. Robert Pattinson as Batman I thought the suit looked awesome. I really do just this very homemade feel a very different look. In terms of how he's developed the Batsuit compared to other iterations, and he has such a presence as well. I don't think that's very new for me. Like certainly in that opening. Well, the the first like detective seem, you can feel like all the eyes on him from all the other cops and stuff. He has real presence and even in that first like, opening scene where you've got voiceover, which is again, a very new thing very raw shocky. From Watchmen. I love that you kind of bookends to film as well. It has a voiceover at the end. It's very crime, crime Noir. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no. Yeah, I would say it kind of reminds me in the seminal work by Frank Miller of The Dark Knight Returns. He monologues constantly in that Yeah, and you That's largely seen as like, like the rebirth of the character in the 80s from being you know camp for since the 60s to more serious and they've never done that which is strange like they've made you know, Batman darker you know, with Nolan and what have you and more serious, but they've never tried to do that, you know, very, you know, hard boiled voiceover detective sort of bleak view. But yeah, I think you're right, very real shot. But I love that kind of like opening scene where, you know, you have all these criminals like writing like, while slowly revealing that they've written broke on on the buildings. And they're, like, always, like, fearful of the shadows and like, the shadows. Yeah, he says. And then he just slowly, slowly, like, just walks out of the shadows and just beat several other criminals. I thought that was just a great opening to see the suit for the first time. I do think the great thing about the opening is there's a lot of like, fake outs, but it makes you feel like you're one of these criminals. So you know, that guy that rubs the corner store and he sees the bat signal, and he's just looking at the corner, you know, just in the street behind the the lines and he's like, that might be I find it funny because he even got hit by a car because he's not paying attention. He is so scared. He is so scared that Batman's there. Remember graffiti is just looking at the door. And then when you get you know, Third time's the charm, you know those criminals looking, you know, they hear they're harassing a guy and they hear a noise and they look darkness and then outcome is boots. You hear the noise, you know? I do like that, because how he just walks out and you hear the noise of his, like metallic boots. It's like he's the Terminator. He's just coming out. He's a creature. Yeah, like nightmare. Yeah, I thought that was that was done really effectively. I mean, it helps when Gotham's weather is terrible. Yeah, it rains all the time. Obviously, that's very on purpose, but it's just kind of funny. It's just, it's raining all the time. Yeah, it's all sunshine would be lovely. It's essentially it's essentially England. Yeah, well, they did shoot some of it in Liverpool, actually, for the funeral scene. But what do you make of this? Sue found out the suit? Oh, yeah, I kind of I kind of like the suit. It's one of those strange ones because it's not that bulky. He definitely fills up the suit and he looks tall. He looks very tome, but it's not that bulky as I think you know, the Batman Begins suit. I think the Batman Begins suit might be my, my favourite suit. Okay, because I just think he looks more, you know, menacing, he looks huge. It's not as bulky as that. But I think one of the things that's kind of interesting is it does look, it's like the Batman suit that looks the most, like it could be real. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, it's the most homemade. It does feel like he literally like welded all this together. And you know, and it seems very functional and practical, you know? And definitely like it can protect him. A lot of the other Batman suits. They feel like they're made of rubber, or in the case of the bat, backflip one out of fabric. But this one looks like you know, it's made of metal. You know, this looks like it could stop anything. It looks like it's and it does. Its Army combat. Yeah, combat armour and it does. I think that's gonna interesting. I kind of like the grapple gun they kind of just feels like it is attached to his arm. He just like flicks it out. And shoots that was pretty cool. That was pretty cool. I'm not sure about the like the wingsuit yes, they're going very practical, but it did look a tad silly on Yeah, I get where they're going with that. He didn't look the coolest flying through Gotham looking like, like a squirrel. Essentially, like a flying squirrel rather than a bot. But uh, yeah, I wasn't really expecting that. But then I you know, I think when I think you hit the nail on the head, it was like, Yeah, this is probably what a real wingsuit would have been like, you know, if real Batman had a wingsuit but it doesn't mean it's like the best Batman wingsuit and he's clearly never done it before because obviously that's that moment where he looks down and like, Oh, shit. I need to jump now. Yeah, I like that. I really like that. Yeah, I think it's the first time you've seen Batman I scared you know, he's like, Oh my God. Yeah, it's the first time he's jumped off a building. And also he needs to work on his landings. I mean, he had a mighty whack job yet. Probably should have died. To be honest. It was a huge impact. Yeah, I mean, because the helmet is basically just lever it does. It looks just lever to me it looks like that. But I don't know if it is leather because I don't know if anybody like tried to shoot him in the head. It might be something more durable, but it definitely doesn't look as as durable as The rest of it is kind of a floor with the storytelling as well with the fact that yes the like the chess play is all metal and he gets a lot of bullets and it just makes the bad guys feel a little stupid when certainly at the end and like just shoot him in the head dude. Yeah they're not Yeah, even though you have this incredible scene where it's literally just all lit in muscle flare and Batman I think is in Carmine Falcone is Carmine Falcone thing and apartment in the in the corridor. I think that looks pretty cool. Yeah, it's completely black and the only light is the other guns going off. I do agree. I do think that was badass. But yeah, in that scene, you feel like he is kind of untouchable. They're just shooting him. And it's like Did you do any like holy crap? I don't think you've ever seen a Batman armour in the movies this durable, like literally submachine gun fire point blank, but I think it was kind of I do feel even though you have some fights which he kind of kind of breezes through. Like in the first fight he has with those thugs. He beats the shit out of them. No problem in penguins club. He's just kicking the shit out of everybody. And then the Carmine Falcone one where he has just a tank. These are all good fights. I do think yeah, there's not that much danger to Batman except the last fight and I think that's the perfect place to put it. You know, cuz even though he's got really great armour, these guys are like firing elephant guns or something. But he gets shot. He literally flies through the air like, yeah, so I kind of that scene I thought was really cool at the end and definitely to have it at the end. Because you're like, Ah, it's Batman fighting a bunch of Riblah goons with guns. He's fought guys with guns. This is fine. But when one of the guys shoots him, and he's like, wow, you know, you're like, oh, man, these are some serious guns. He's flying. Yeah. So I did feel like Batman was was in a lot of danger at the end. So I did like that fight. And I love this addition of the fact that he basically get it seemed like a shot of adrenaline. And it's like a special hole in his leg. gives himself a shot of adrenaline. I thought that was great and definitely gave me Logan vibes. Oh, yeah, they've got that from Logan. It feels practical as well in the fact that he is kind of a bit unhinged as Bruce Wayne and Batman. That's something he would do as well. Yeah. Colin Farrell. I thought was pretty funny in there. See? Yeah, he was great. Great. Prosthetics? Yeah. I mean, I think the accent was pretty awesome. Yeah. Hello, sweet. Ha. I think it's not just the prosthetics. It's like, he does not sound or act or move anything like Colin Farrell. You're like, yeah, he's just you know, he's a different guy. Yeah, I thought that was pretty cool. I thought he did a really good job. Um, yeah, he was quite funny. I like his his his Spanish lessons of like, helping them so don't you guys speak Spanish? It's not el Rata. Slow Rata. Yeah, the fact that they try to think way too hard. Gordon and Batman, but no, it's just like no su RL. Yeah, URL. Yeah, I thought that was quite funny. So I mean, that that makes him feel quite intelligent. Yeah, he is quite. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Like he's not just some moron. I think a lot of the villains did feel like credible threats. Like you know, the penguin is a threat. He's not like some moron but so is the Riddler. The Riddler is a threat. As impenetrable as this Batman is it's like these guys could still potentially kill him. Yeah. What do you think of Paul de No, then as the red law? Yeah, you're supposed to go this way. You sit on Sunday. He was great. Clearly being Paul, Dana was to stub your toe Yeah, I thought I quite liked him. Yeah, yeah, I thought he was kind of he was quite creepy. And he was kind of it's weird. He was kind of over the top, essentially like putting on this really over the top performance. But not in the same way as like Jim Carrey. It's a very much a Oh, no, no. It's kind of over the top and in the opposite direction. Whereas Jim Carrey is like fully Jim Carrey and zany and crazy Paul. Dana is so over the top, but he's more like menacing, and like, really? unhinged, and you don't know exactly how he's gonna come at you. Yeah, like he could whisper things to you. Breathe really loudly, loudly. Or he could just go completely crazy. Like, you know, and I do like, where they change that up at the end where he Batman figures out the password to his secret video to you know, destroy Gotham and everything. And he's just like, hey, guys, thanks for the support. What the hell? It's like a so casual. That was hilarious. At no point in the film. Is he casual? Just that scene and I thought that was a that was really funny. Yeah, it's almost like the character the Riddler is doing like this really weird performance art to be as scary as possible. And I just love that. You expect that he's on the camera. creepy mask. Hey, guys. Thanks. That's funny. I do feel like that was kind of a dig at Instagram influencers a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I thought he was great. I think I've definitely agree he, he has a very over the top performance yet, but it does feel grounded. And that opening sequence, kind of like the prologue, I guess, where he, where the mayor just moves, and he's just right there and you like, and the light is so perfect that it just catches two dots of light on his ass glasses. That was amazing shot. I thought that was great. What was strange, actually, is that the filming of this reminded, and it's kind of ironic, because it reminded me a lot of, you know, when we watched prisoners. Yeah, we also had Paul Dano in it. And I said, you get this very fly on a wall feeling from prisoners, because they would do all these wide shots. And you'd be kind of really far from the action, but you'd see it almost like you're a spectator. I noticed it did it a lot in this film, which is strange, because it had pulled down on it. But and I thought it fit with this film as well, because the Riddler is always like this sort of omnipresent force. That is just seeing everything that Batman's doing and everything everybody's doing. And you get it in a lot of scenes where everything is shot, like quite far away with minimal cuts. And it does feel like yeah, this could be the Riddler just looking at the scene. Just got this very fly on the wall. look to it was exactly the same thing as Batman, like, is no man lingering in the shadows or whatever. This very lingering wide shots. Yeah, very similar to prisoners, as you said, yeah, yeah. I think that's kind of what the film was kind of going for with the stories with the story in terms of Batman, slash Bruce Wayne's arc is the fact that, you know, when Batman takes down, the last regular guy, literally, beating into a pole takes the mask off. And he says, Who are you? Why he asked him, Who are you? And he says, I'm vengeance. And that's what he said before. He's always been seeing himself as vengeance. So throughout the film, like Batman and Radler kind of have the same trajectory, one being more sadistic, and the other one being kind of slightly more naive about what he's doing in terms of trying to be vengeful about trying to save the city. But they're basically going in the same direction of what they that what they're trying to do. Yeah. But then, obviously, the bit of that point is is more of a realisation moment of like, oh, shit, this is not working. What I'm doing. I need to be more heroic. Yeah, yes, that's a great idea. It's not really particularly very new ground in terms of a Batman film, in terms of how Batman develops. I think it's done better personally in, in Batman Begins in The Dark Knight, but I still quite like it. Well, I would say like in Batman Begins, he, he learns that he has to be, you know, as you said, like the saviour of the city, and not just just in the shadows and scaring criminals. Yeah, he's got to be more than a vigilante like kind of legend. And then in in the dark night, he realises he can't even be the hero. He's actually got to be the villain to make the city work. So those were interesting arcs in those films, I think, yeah, in this it's like, he has to learn essentially, like Batman Begins. He's got to learn that he has to be not just fear and, and terror and vengeance and violence, but he needs to be hope, as well. He can't just be one without the other. Otherwise, he's very similar to to the Riddler. Well, the Riddler is kind of, you know, because I think Matt Reeves is a really interesting director here, because certainly with his planet, the apes films that show that he did, there's a lot of like, biblical imagery here in those films, and there is biblical imagery in this one as well, certainly towards the end, where he's got the red flashlight, and he's leading these people out of the water. Yeah, that was pretty very Moses, like very Moses. So he's very interested in biblical imagery, I think is quite powerful at the end, and obviously, when when he's basically helping people out of the floodwater, and the girl is literally just holding his arm and the girl won't let go until the last moment was the helicopters lifting her up that well, that was quite a powerful, biblical moment. I think that you're seeing Batman now as a symbol of hope. So it's an interesting choice reasons going forward. Even a choice of hiring reasons in the first place. Yeah, but saying that, is this film different enough for you to exist compared to like the Noland stuff and the timber and movies? Is it different enough? Or? I think so? Or is it trading way too much ground of the same ground? So I think I think the the one way is significantly different than the others is. So I would say even though like the Nolan stuff was far more realistic than than the Burton, Schumacher stuff, so that had a reason to exist, because it's like, okay, this is Batman. But, you know, more real world. I think this is also real world, and very modern. But I think the difference is, like, this is more like, I think delving into a part of Batman that doesn't really get explored in movies. And this is the fact that he's a great detect here. And he's a very smart individual. And I don't think you've really had this in a Batman film. There's been detective elements, but it's never been central to the story. No, it's never been full blown. Yeah, it's never been central to the story. And I think what would be a good trajectory is to not because I think it's the best thing to have Batman is a detective in a Riddler story. I mean, that just makes a lot of sense. He's the perfect villain for a detective story. He's the perfect villain for a detective story. But I think Matt Reeves shouldn't like let up off of that. And I think he should make if he makes a Batman trilogy, make that a distinctive element that goes through all of the films, then I think that would that would come across very different. If in the next film, he's again, looking through clues, interviewing people, and and going through another detective story. And then the third one another detective story. Yeah, I hope so. Yeah, pick more Batman villains that are more of an internal intellectual problem for Batman. Yeah. Because for me, this film is basically a film noir from like the 50s and 40s. But just with Batman instead of a guy in a trench coat. Yeah. And I love that, you know, I think, again, he just has credit, incredible presence in this film. And also, the relationship between Batman and Gordon has never been as strong as in in this film, which I love that. And Jeffrey Wright is so good. And I love that scene where he's kind of basically trapped in the police station. And he's like, here's the keys. Punch me in the face. Yeah, he's making it sound like he's having like, a hard discussion with him. He's like, I'll talk to him. And he's like you better? You know, like, yeah, I don't trust any of these guys is the key. Well, I would say this film isn't like laugh out funny. And it's not so ridiculous. And it is quite seriously, it doesn't take itself too seriously. And there are light hearted moments in this. So I think that's great. There are moments of levity. So I do like the bit where he punched him in the face. And then afterwards, he's like, couldn't you have pulled your punches? And he's like, Yeah, I did. That was good. It's kind of funny because it's like, you know, it's not like so funny. It's ridiculous. Like, you know, Batman Forever or whatever. But it's, it's just kind of a little chuckle wailing. That's funny. Yeah, I think the penguin gives the film a lot of humour as well as a great moment where you find out Carmine Falcone is the rat, and, and he's been walked out of the station or walked out of wherever, and, and the penguin sees him in he's like, I'm gonna paint this spray paint this guy, new asshole or something. Hilarious. That said, also, the performance of John Turturro. John Turturro, everybody's saying the villain of this villains of this film, and and especially, you know, because they're the more fantastical villains are the penguin and the Riddler. But yeah, John Turturro is really up there. Like he is the third villain. And I just don't see Yeah, anybody, like make a big deal because in the film, he is a big deal. And I like how they they kind of peel back layers at the beginning is not such a big deal. He's like, you know, the Riddler is threatening the city. The Penguin is got this seedy nightclub is not such a focus in the film. But then when you unravel more layers, it's like he's the reason all of this is happening. He is very connected to Bruce Wayne's father, perhaps his father's death that's left ambiguous, so he could have actually killed his father. He's linked to Catwoman. He's her father. Spoilers by the way, anybody? Listen. Yeah, this is spoil a special wireless carrier. This is very spoiled. And, you know, obviously he's the penguins boss. He took all that money from that was given by the Wayne's to the orphanage. And then the Riddler was at and he stole that money and not only that, he actually runs the city. So literally every official and and police person and all that, that the Riddler was killing worked for him like, yeah, like he is so central to this movie that and I love the reveal of that, you know I love that and I just think you don't even see him that much in the promotional material but it's like No, dude, this guy is the real villain. Why aren't people talking about this? Like this is yeah, I you know and I thought John did a good job. Yeah, especially especially cuz you don't really expect that from him. He's more like you know the zany funny guy. Yeah, but he's being a very straight faced, quite intimidating gangster. What do you reckon about Zoe Kravitz? Then I thought she was great. Yeah, I thought she was pretty good. I'm not sure about the costume. I think certainly, Selena CO and this is basically the representation of how por a lot of these people are. The katzie is very dirty, torn. I don't really like the like the balaclava. If he's literally trying to hide her identity. She's basically just hiding her nose. That's it, but Oh, okay. Yeah, I know what you mean by that? Yeah. Yeah. So that's only covered like about to hear and it's completely open. Yeah, that is kind of ridiculous. But as a performance, and you know, I thought she was great. That whole scene where she's got like the camera in the contact lens. I thought that was a great scene. Yeah, it was a lot of interesting tension there with with the corrupt da Colson. Yeah, it's really gonna also last confrontation with John Turturro. I thought that was pretty good. It's a lot of emotion. And I thought it was a tad cliche, though, that when Catwoman does save Batman from falling into the water, you could definitely see that coming at some stage. They kind of set that up. They set it up because it's kind of it's kind of blindingly obvious. Are you talking about light at the end? Yeah, where literally the guy. The guy is doing the most sensible thing like the villain, one of the Riddler henchmen. But he's doing it in such in much the slowest way that you like, Yeah, we're gonna hurry up here. Because this happens on so many movies, but it becomes a bit tiresome. Yeah, where it's like, Batman's hanging on for dear life. And the dude has this enormous gun, and he's literally very slowly moving it from his armour to his face. You like dude, you could just look real cool. And just blow his face out of his helmet. Yeah, come on, you know what's gonna happen there. Katelyn was gonna save the day. And she does. Yeah, there was there was actually a film where I saw that setup happen, because I've seen that happen so many times, and so many. It is a cliche. The bad guy has the good guy in the ropes, and very slowly puts the gun to him very slowly puts the knife to him. And really, they're just, you know, trying to wait out the time until somebody can save them. Yeah. And I saw this one film called black thorn. Have you ever watched that? That is a that is a good film. It's it's it's a Western. And it's meant to be like, what if Butch Cassidy survived? You know, the fight with? Yeah. So you know, at the end of the movie, which he survives that, and he's living somewhere else. And he has a like, last adventure when he's an old man. It's a really good film. And there was this one scene where this guy pulls out a shotgun, and is like, you know, holding up his wife. Yeah. And she's taking so long and you're like, well, he's gonna come and save the day save mRNA Yeah, she just shoots his wife, like straight in the chest. I was like Jesus Christ. And I thought that was done effectively because I was like, it sets up exactly. Like this, like, you know, they're waiting for time for him to savour. And then she just shoots it. I thought that was amazing. I thought that was a really well done. Flip of expectation. I guess that's the problem with this scene in the Batman was because the guy's never gonna shoot Batman, you know, in the head. I mean, that's just never gonna happen. No, yeah. I mean, I think I would be so surprised if that scene was, you know, slowly, slowly, and then he just blows his head off. But then you don't have any. There's no boy series. You know. That's it. Oh, that did unexpectedly. Oh, it's Batman's brains. I would go wow, they had I would have been shocked. fallen out of my chair. I would have gone man they had balls. But that film is terrible. Kill. What is a good damn point of that? But then Robin turns up and Robin, it would be funny if it was Chris O'Donnell. Now now like in his 50s Yeah. I mean, I love this film a lot. But there's one scene I absolutely hated. I really didn't like it. I didn't see the point. I was like, stop it. Stop it. It was really tagged on as well as the scene where the Riddler is in Arkham Asylum and then someone is listening to what he's saying. And he's basically talking to him and this character is The Joker. You can tell it's a joke because he's got all kinds of like stitches around his mouth. Funny hair played by Barry Cogan. It's just why we've had loads of jokers in the past to rubbish ones recently. And it's just like, do we have to have another one? Just leave the guy alone. Let him write some new jokes. Give him time. Yeah, I think also it kind of undercuts the importance of the villain in this film. If you're just like, oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the villain isn't that you know, bigger deal. Here's the Joker. You like For fuck sake. You know, I haven't had time to like, you know, let the Riddler have his moment to shine for Christ's sake. You can tell that's like pandering to the fans who they only really know one Batman villain. And the only one that Batman. There are loads of Batman villains out there. Yes, lots of silly ones, but some really cool ones. Yeah, under explored ones. You know, I can I can name some, I think would be great for like sequels. We were talking about this. I think, you know, I would love another shot to face I know, he's been done twice before. And you know, we're talking. But the joke has always been whenever he's in a film, he's the main focus. And two faces always been done dirty. Because it's like, he's almost no, not really in the film. I want to see Batman vs two face. Yeah. So I think that would be a good one. I would like to see a serious version of Mr. Freeze. I think that's something I want. It's hard. How do you make a serious version? I think it would be hard, but I think it would be kind of interesting. I was like, how do you make a grounded version of Mr. Freeze? The only reason I say that is because Matt Reeves was thinking that he was like, it'd be interesting to do Mr. Freeze. And I was like, huh, it's kind of intrigued. I was like, how do you make a serious, Mr. Fred? Because his backstory is really interesting, isn't it? So it is, you know, his wife having McGregor syndrome? Yeah. And I think with Batman and Robin, like they had the stuff with his wife. And that's interesting, but it doesn't gel with the rest of his depiction. He's so cartoonishly silly, and it doesn't make any sense. Like I think with Arnold Schwarzenegger is Mr. Freeze, you could cut that bit out of his storyline. Like, and he could just still be a madman who likes diamonds, you know? Like, there's no reason for that. But I think if you had like, a more sympathetic villain, who is really trying to save his wife, and that comes in, I think that could be kind of interesting. Robert Pattinson said he would really like the court vows I think that would be kind of cool. Because that's a huge conspiracy. I like the fact that at this at the end of this film, he's discovered a huge conspiracy that the entire Gotham government is being controlled by the mafia. Yeah, it's all corrupt, corrupt, it's being controlled by the mafia, specifically calm, okay. And then I think for another one, that literally all of Gotham is actually controlled by like an evil fucking organisation that is ruled it for hundreds of years. Like that would be insane. Well, now, this film is left in like a big power vacuum. So yes, we're going to have the penguin TV series. That's exciting with Colin Farrell. But yeah, you know that there can be lots of lots of interesting criminal underworld stuff going on? Absolutely. I think I think you could, like set up quite a lot of things. So I would have like only one villain be the focus. So you know, you don't get to sideline, but just like they did in this film and have, you know, the penguin. They're basically and he helps out. You could do that with some other villains. Yeah, have a sort of gang war going on. I think there are all kinds of ways you can go. Again, I do want it kind of to still be quite realistic, and not introduce too many things. Because again, this feels really really grounded. I think, you know, if they start introducing, you know, Clay face or, you know, other things, it'd be a bit the Batmobile Yeah, I don't like the Batmobile. I like the car chase with the Batmobile. That was amazing. But the actual Batmobile Yeah, it's always underwhelmed me. I think the problem with this one is the fact that it doesn't look like Batmobile. It just looks like a car. Yeah, rock it up. It's Yes, that's it. That's essentially what this car is this well, I keep slipping and saying car because it is a car. It's not a Batmobile, but I guess it does fit in the realism of this film. The tone? Yeah, I would say it fits in the realism because it's like, I would say it fits more real than even the lowland stuff. Because even as real as the Noland stuff is you are not going to find a man drive around in a tank like that's not happening. So even that is like a bit out there. It's in the realms of possibility. But it's it's never going to happen. It's very improbable. But a guy with a really fast American muscle car Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, that works like it's pretty souped up. But it's not like impossible. There's something. You know, if you've got the time you could kind of make it doesn't look something that's that you would see. But I think one thing I would say about this is the best sounding Batmobile I think we've ever had. Yeah, it does sound good. The sound of this car is awesome. Like that opening little sequence before the chase starts. We're all kind of though. The lights come on. And it's all very dark and silhouetted and all you hear is this incredible noise and the jet jet engine noise. That was awesome. And obviously the chase itself was very, very cool. I would say it's like, it's kind of interesting, because I think when Batman shows up, I think that's one of the best if not the best, like introductions of Batman, where he just comes out of the shadow. You hear noise, and he just seems like a monster. Yeah, you know, he's just come out of nowhere. He's a monster. And you don't see like some ridiculous suit up. You know, anything like that? comes out of the blackness of night. No background. Yeah, no book cracks. He's like a no nipples. He just comes out of the blackness of light that night. He's like the Terminator. And you get that ominous feeling. And I think they they replicated that with the Batmobile to a greater extent, like up there. I think this is the best one of the best also introductions of the Batmobile. Again, you've never seen it before at any point in this movie. And Batman's in trouble. And this thing just comes out like a monster, you know, it days is them. You still don't see what it looks like it makes all this noise. It's like it's roaring. And that's the introduction of the Batmobile. I think it was introduced really well. Still the I think we're in agreement that design, it could benefit from looking, you know, a bit more Batmobile, Lee. And I think that certainly in tune to the fact that this Batman is very different to the fact that he saying no to Wayne Enterprises. He doesn't want to be involved with any of that money. But then that brings into question of like, well, how has he built? How is he developed this car when he has no money? And it's just like, there's a lot of questions around that I understand it. But just logically doesn't make a lot of sense. That's why I think a lot of the previous films they went with that because it kind of makes Batman possible because he's, he's rich. So how was the Batman in this one? They don't know. Yeah, I don't know if he's just like into really kind of advanced arts and crafts. I think I think maybe it could just be that he's using some of the money. Yeah, it's not really explained. Yeah, it's not really explained. But I think he might be buying things, you know, maybe in his travels are something I'm not entirely sure, isn't it? It's never really stated. I think that comes on to one of the other issues I have with this film. Yes, the relationship between Batman and Gordon has never been better in this film, which is amazing. I love that. But they are kind of sacrificing the key relationship which all the other Batman films always keep hold of is the relationship between Batman, Bruce Wayne and Alfred. Yes, yeah, I 100% agree with that. They definitely sideline this one a little bit. And it's such a shame because you have an incredible act and like Andy Serkis. He does feel very wasted, but also with the fact that one of the riddles is very connected to Bruce Wayne. And Alfred is opening one of the letters and he nearly gets killed by an explosion. And when he's on his deathbed, the emotions just don't really connect. Yeah, resume because we haven't really established Yeah, that relationship. Yeah. 100% agree with that. So it just felt a bit unfortunate that one of the, you know, this detective storyline that threatens Alfred, but I'm just like, the relationships not there, though. You know, so why are you threatening Alfred's threatened? Threatened Gordon? I would say friend gore. Yeah, I think I think you're right. I think they do. They really do sideline, Alfred here. So, I mean, yeah, you do have the scene where he almost dies. And Bruce is clearly very upset. And he tells him he doesn't want to lose, like, you know, another family member and, and all this and you know, he has a talk with Alfred, but I do think it right, you don't really see much of a relationship from them. Like Alfred just chimes in every now and then. And like, you know, I'll help you work on this riddle. I'll help you work on that. But yeah, they don't really get a chance to hang you don't get any sense that he he cares about him. They don't really have that many scenes together other than detective ones. So it's kind of it's unfortunate. He's always been like the emotional heart of the Batman films. I just he is in this one, but just too late. But it's not at the same time if you know, I mean, it's yeah, it's too late kind of thing. Yeah. He's kind of like an absentee dad or just very not interested and then well, they're not interested in each other. Really. It doesn't feel like it, and then when he's in trouble, you know, when Alfred feels like he's gonna die. You know, that's when it looks like they care about each other. But it's like, you need to really set that up. You know? Yeah, I agree with that. Also, one thing that I'm kind of on the fence of if I like it or not, is the fact that yeah, I don't feel like there is Bruce Wayne in this. You kind of get what I mean. Yeah, I hope they do set it up. But I do find it interesting. Maybe it's kind of the origin of that, where he doesn't act like a playboy billionaire. I mean, if anybody were to see Bruce Wayne, I don't know why they wouldn't immediately think he's Batman. He breeds and doesn't say much keeps to himself. He's very emo. Like, you know, this guy seems like Batman, you know, email, Batman. Yeah. But you know, he's incredibly. You know, he's incredibly creepy, even his way. I just find like, how nobody would just put two and two together. Yeah. But yeah, what I really liked about all the other Batman on the screen is the fact that Bruce Wayne would essentially be the mask. So they would pretend to have fun. They would pretend to be very gregarious, but that's all of a sudden, they're really, you know, you'd think there's no way this is Batman, you know? Exactly. Exactly. Like, for example, I would even say you go back to Michael Keaton, you would you would never in a million years think he was Batman, you know, out of the suit, never in a million years. And I think Christian Bale also does a pretty damn good job with that, of being so over the top, because he basically there's a scene in Batman Begins where he's walking into a hotel with to like, Russian models or something. Yeah. And then and they basically decide to swim in a water feature. And it's like, yeah, that guy's not Batman. Yeah, looking weird. So I think this was kind of so I kind of understand maybe it's so early on that he just doesn't care about anything, but being Batman, even like, trying to make an attempt. But I felt like that was missing. You don't even there isn't even an ending where he so the whole point of the film is he realises he has to be a symbol for hope, as well as vengeance. But he at no point realises he needs to like really behave differently to achieve a secret identity. I don't think they've it didn't feel like they came up with the origin for that. So I don't know if they would do that in the next film. Just have people go. Man, this guy's creepy. He might be Batman and then for him to think, yeah, I need like to make up. You know, I do feel like maybe as Bruce Wayne he is kind of like feet of the little scenes we get of Bruce Wayne. He's kind of feeling the emotional facts of facts of what he's doing. And you kind of do get the sense that he's very nocturnal, and he's got always got sunglasses on his outsides, you know, before that funeral scene, but yeah, we don't really see much of him. But I kind of like the fact that in this film, we have way more Batman. Yeah, than we do. Bruce Wayne, because in the like, in the Noland stuff, it's like Bruce, Bruce, and Bruce Wayne Batman scene. And with this, it's the opposite. I thought was quite refreshing. Yeah, no, yeah. With this. There's There's barely there's barely any Bruce Wayne. It's essentially like if you just like Batman, and you don't like Bruce Wayne, like that much? Because like totally, they're very different. He like literally switches his personality. Yeah, this is just Batman all the way through. He's Batman back. Even out of the costume. He's still Batman. Yeah, just Batman without a costume. You know? I think that's kind of interesting. I also thought the riddles were pretty challenging. Like they were just some like, you know, I do. Yeah, I do. Like kind of amazing. I love the clusen Yeah, I think we'll leave it there. Thanks, Buzz. It has been a pleasure as always talking Batman. I don't know what the next spoiler special will be possibly on Dr. Strange multiverse of madness. That sounds like an absolute massive movie. So we might be doing this for a special one. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening. Bye, man. That's it for this week's pod. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. If you would like to find out more about the podcast or suggest future topics for us to discuss related to upcoming releases. Let us know on Instagram at film versus film podcast and on Twitter at fVf underscore podcast. Remember, please subscribe pod signing off